Nudism and Intolerance!

[richinud]

Why are nudists so intolerant? As a group nudists profess to be tolerant but then exercise severe judgement when anyone suggests anything not in the main stream. Take the attitude to shaving, or to being naked in public, or letting clothes and nudity mingle, or body piercing, etc. etc. It's so very similar to religious fervour, where one group is a little different and is then summarily judged, sentenced and ostracised, in one fell swoop. I don't get it.

R.

http://www.naktiv.net

[RolandSmokit]

You raise an interesting point, and I think it is probably a good example of one of the fundamental idiosyncrasies of the human being. I call it the mirror.... it seems to be a universal truth that what really pisses us off is seeing our own faults reflected in another, and the more we are blind to our own faults the more deeply we are affected by others with those faults. So, as in your example, the people most likely to be moaning about other peoples intolerance are , probably, intolerant people themselves. ( there is an interesting twist on this I've discovered about " new age therapists" ... they are usually in dire need of whatever therapy they are professing to offer ! ..... so, be very careful of any of the" mind" therapists, they are almost bound to be complete nutters!... body therapists probably just need a cuddle ! )

Of course, many naturists walk a tightrope between being sexually normal and in complete public denial of any sexual element to naturism, they are so busy trying to justify themselves as pure and innocently naked that they freak out at anything that might represent " adventurousness" ( such as piercing or shaving) which might also draw attention to their own ( denied) sexual normality.

[Azmodan]

Of course, many naturists walk a tightrope between being sexually normal and in complete public denial of any sexual element to naturism, they are so busy trying to justify themselves as pure and innocently naked that they freak out at anything that might represent " adventurousness" ( such as piercing or shaving) which might also draw attention to their own ( denied) sexual normality.

Indeed. And the original post didn't even mention the hatred many nudists seem to have for swingers (which do not have anything against nudists). Now that I said that, I expect that any minute now someone will answer with a variation of "but swingers are BAD!".

[northlondoner]

An interesting point. I think there are a lot of differing levels of tolerance by nudists, just as there are differences among many groups of people with a common interest. There are many who want everyone to be naked in clubs, on designated beaches, and by contrast others who accept and support these facilities being clothing optional. The intolerant on a particular issue may be more vocal people, not part of a silent majority.

Depending on who comes within the definition of a nudist (a whole separate subject for debate in itself) the proportion of generally intolerant nudists may be smaller than thought. The one area where there may be some common ground of intolerance is in behaviour felt to bring nudism a bad name, which would include swingers (nothing to do with nudism anyway) and those (usually men) who behave in a way that is considered socially unacceptable even if everyone was clothed (following, gawping for example).

Our enjoyment of nude recreation in whichever form we choose is what should unite us. There are enough people who want to restrict us and some areas of intolerance could be fuel to the fire of such people.

[Spieler]

Indeed. And the original post didn't even mention the hatred many nudists seem to have for swingers (which do not have anything against nudists). Now that I said that, I expect that any minute now someone will answer with a variation of "but swingers are BAD!".

You don't even need to be a swinger to find intolerance. Just try being single and see how you're treated by a large section of the naturist community

[sanua_chap]

Why are nudists so intolerant? As a group nudists profess to be tolerant but then exercise severe judgement when anyone suggests anything not in the main stream. Take the attitude to shaving, or to being naked in public, or letting clothes and nudity mingle, or body piercing, etc. etc. It's so very similar to religious fervour, where one group is a little different and is then summarily judged, sentenced and ostracised, in one fell swoop. I don't get it.

R.

http://www.naktiv.net

Okay... we are talking about nudists 'as a group' - individually, nudists come in all kinds of shapes and sizes, with all kinds of preferences, beliefs and hangups.

But is it so surprising that nudists as a group do not respond warmly to people who combine nudity with blatant sexuality? After all, the one big problem we all hear about time and time again is that the general population is against naturism because they think it is something sexual. And all these people are just confirming that prejudice, and hence making it more difficult for the rest of us to just get on with being without clothes in public.

Personally, I'm very intolerant of intolerance of all kinds. But I can see where it comes from.

[nudecamper]

I think those that those that run naturist organizations(ie BN) & campsites/clubs are very conscious of the textile world's perception of naturism, non-naturists, whose only form of naked recreation is sex cannot grasp that it is possible just to relax, sunbathe & swin naked without there being any more of a sexual aspect than textiles who indulge in similar pursuits wearing swimwear. So it follows that anything that might renforce textiles' veiw that naturism is somehow perverted & wrong(ie 'intimate' piercings) might be frowned upon by those who only nude agenda is to enjoy the good feeling of being nude.

However if folk want to parade up & down a naturist beach under the influence of alcohol/drugs showing off their piercing & tatoos, generally being noisy & a nuisance they can hardly blame other naturists for being intolerant of them. I think naturists are perfectly tolerant of others provided discrection is excercised. On any naturist campsites you will see plenty of folk shaved, gay couples, piercings etc, if there is any 'swinging' Ive yet to see it. Perhaps it goes on discreetly. The main thing is that nobody forces themselves or their beliefs/leanings on anybody else.

Clothing optional, I don't like. It just looks untidy imho.

[Azmodan]

But is it so surprising that nudists as a group do not respond warmly to people who combine nudity with blatant sexuality?

Well, yes it is. You would expect a group that's discriminated against to be more understanding and not turn back and bash another group. That's what you do when you are in high school, not when you are a grown up. And "not respond warmly" is an understatement. Nudist blogs bash them regularly. I reminded one blogger that it's not nice or a good promotion for nudism to spread hate about other groups. He responded by "try to go to one of their club without being a swinger to see how they treat you". I said I did, they called that being a tourist and they are nice and welcoming even if you don't engage in any sexual activity there. He called that hateful rhetoric.

Or just remember when nudists burned down swingers clubs in Agde. Instead of condemning the arsonists who commited a hateful crime, the discussion (even here), turned into a bashfest of swingers.

I'm not saying that we have to think swinging is a good thing to engage in, I'm saying that we have to accept it and respect it the same way we expect textile to accept and respect nudism even though they don't think it's a good thing to engage in.

Also, they don't combine nudity and sexuality, they combine sexuality and sexuality. Nudity is accessory.

After all, the one big problem we all hear about time and time again is that the general population is against naturism because they think it is something sexual. And all these people are just confirming that prejudice, and hence making it more difficult for the rest of us to just get on with being without clothes in public.

I think this is just the mirror of our own hang ups about sexuality. I see no evidence that this is the problem society have with nudism. In fact, I think society will turn more tolerant of sexuality first because the average person have no urge to take his or her clothes off but sex is a primal urge. We should rejoice when people become more tolerant of sexuality because it means they become more comfortable with their own bodies and that is a net gain for us.

[Spieler]

I think those that those that run naturist organizations(ie BN) & campsites/clubs are very conscious of the textile world's perception of naturism, non-naturists, whose only form of naked recreation is sex cannot grasp that it is possible just to relax, sunbathe & swin naked without there being any more of a sexual aspect than textiles who indulge in similar pursuits wearing swimwear.

Press reports like this one don't actually help our image much though

http://www.thecnj.co.uk/camden/2009/120 ... 09_05.html

The presumption in this article seems to be if it involves nudity then sex also comes into the equation and you can call it nudism.

[Azmodan]

Press reports like this one don't actually help our image much though

http://www.thecnj.co.uk/camden/2009/120 ... 09_05.html

We solved all those problems once and for all in Canada. We made swinging unambiguously legal. Since then, swingers have their own facilities because they like it better that way. You won't solve the problem any other way, as you can see, it makes a lot of business sense to cater to swingers so people will no matter what.

[lardburger]

It is wonderful indeed that someone is finally giving credit for my lifelong and keenly developed sense of intolerance. I thought no one would ever notice. What a disappointment that would be.

People are all different, and it is dangerous to generalize. However, quite a few naturists have experienced a lot of social pressure in their lives. It isn't just the fact (although it is the fact) that many families find a preference to go about unclothed to be just a little bit much to take. It isn't the usual thing. So, there is opposition built in to the naturist's life. But it goes further. A person who is prone toward naturism is the sort of person who will continue on, despite some degree of social pressure. There is something of an independent spirit there, a bit of stubbornness at the edges. Such people have an inner nature that is more prone than the average to run into social opposition and social pressure, quite independently of any fashion choices---however minimalist.

People who live with more social pressure than they like, or people who are constrained by too many rules (the church has rules, the corporation has rules, the zoning district has rules, the PTA has rules, the Little League has rules---who does not think they have some important rule) themselves become reactive. They've put up with enough already, and they're not going to put up with anything more. So, we have a beautiful and well-developed intolerance, just waiting to blossom. It is a wonderful thing, really.

The only thing you could do to ruin this is to adopt more of a live and let live philosophy. People who have enough social space for their own well being are sometimes willing to give others enough social space for them to live, too. It's the way. Such an extreme thing, though, is not likely to happen. Our intolerance is safe---I'm so glad.

All I can say is that I'm damned tired of people who perform the ornamentation in Bach fugues incorrectly. If they can't get the details right, why do they even bother!!!!!! You see, we can be intolerant in any matter, even ones that DON'T matter.

[Eugenius]

Just a theory, not an incontrovertibly proven fact, but I'd guess that just about everyone, even the most open-minded naturist, is intolerant of something or other. We've all got biases, we've all got dislikes and we're all irrational in our own way. Rather than pretending we're not, I think it better to just acknowledge our flaws and not let them get in the way.

A non-exhaustive list of my intolerances: reality television; lobster; Bon Jovi; people who use religion/politics to bash other people; smokers; people not from New Jersey who make New Jersey jokes; Microsoft Windows; Jerry Seinfeld. As I said, non-exhaustive, so there are probably others, but I'm not planning on updating this list.

[Azmodan]

It is wonderful indeed that someone is finally giving credit for my lifelong and keenly developed sense of intolerance. I thought no one would ever notice. What a disappointment that would be.

I don't think anybody meant that being a nudist means that you have prejudices (being a human does though) but there is a strong correlation between certain prejudices and being a nudist and that is an unhealthy part of our culture that we have to recognize and deal with.

[richinud]

All I can say is that I'm damned tired of people who perform the ornamentation in Bach fugues incorrectly. If they can't get the details right, why do they even bother!!!!!! You see, we can be intolerant in any matter, even ones that DON'T matter.

Incorrect Bach fugues? Don't get me started!

;-)

Rich.

[Blizz]

Just try being single and see how you're treated by a large section of the naturist community

Yeah, I've noticed that, just from some of the event information I've looked at.